New Season of Building on the Apostolic and Prophetic


Greetings to you dear believer. The Lord has confirmed that the church as a whole has shifted to a new season and consequently we must build on the Apostolic and Prophetic foundation laid out in Ephesians 2:20. This document has been collated by Thomas Harry, through the leading of the Holy Spirit in order to communicate this word to the global church. Due to the urgent nature of this word, please circulate this to believers and leaders both here in the UK and beyond. I urge every believer and leader to take the time to read through this as it is certainly one of the most important words for the church in many years.

Over the past few months and in particular at the start of 2016, the Lord has been emphasizing and continues to emphasize one of the most crucial words for the church. The word is regarding Ephesians 2:20 and the church building on the foundation of the Apostles and Prophets. Due to the unprecedented number of confirmations from Christian leaders all over the world, it is clear this is a word for the whole church. The bible says in Exodus 2:25 “By the mouth of 2 or 3 witnesses let every word be established.” In this extraordinary case there are not 2 or 3 confirmations for this word, but 10 confirmations in this document alone from unconnected sources from all over the world. It has been extraordinary and from every angle.

The confirmations included in this document are not exhaustive and many more could have been shared. However, there is more than enough to confirm this is a genuine word from the Lord. Some will wonder why prophecy is so important. Revelation 19:10 says “The testimony of Jesus is the Spirit of Prophecy.” Prophecy actually points to the testimony and truth of Jesus, so it is hugely significant. In addition, it is worth reminding ourselves that the whole bible is prophetic from Genesis to Revelation. So I urge you dear brother or sister in Christ to take the time to read through this and the confirmations and allow God to speak to you and by His grace we can all adjust accordingly.

“Behold I do a new thing, before it springs up I will tell you, do you not see it?” (Isaiah 43:19)

Some believers may not have realized it yet, but the church has shifted to a new season and the Lord is doing a new thing.

” And no one pours new wine into old wineskins. Otherwise, the wine will burst the skins, and both the wine and the wineskins will be ruined. No, they pour new wine into new wineskins.” (Mark 2:22).

The Lord has emphasized that this parable will now become a major reality for the church in this new season. The Lord requires us all to adjust to a new wine skin in order to prepare for and contain what He is about to release in the earth.

There are huge changes and awakening coming in the earth and the church. However, as the parable states if we do not prepare a new wine skin, the new wine cannot be contained. This new wine skin is found in Ephesians 2:20:

“Together, we are his house, built on the foundation of the apostles and the prophets. And the cornerstone is Christ Jesus himself.” (Ephesians 2:20)

The Lord recently began to reveal that the church as a whole have not built upon this biblical foundation. There will be exceptions, but the majority have not fully embraced the true biblical foundation that is clearly stated in Ephesians 2:20. It is a truly incredible realization when this begins to sink in.

There are many complex and in depth ways to describe the Apostolic and Prophetic. However, that would not be beneficial for many who are not familiar with this and are hungry to adjust with the Lord. Therefore, the Lord simplified it so that all can understand from the most well established Christian leader to brand new believer. In addition, the Lord clarified why these 2 functions are so essential to the church and why it has a negative impact when we do not build according to this Heavenly blueprint and biblical order. In simple terms the Prophetic sees and hears what God wants to do/His will and the Apostolic shows how to actually achieve God’s will.

A recent prophetic word from Lana Vawser further emphasizes what God is saying and also perfectly explains the role of the prophetic in obtaining revelation of God’s plans.

“The Lord is wanting to bring a restoration, purifying and increase to the prophetic across the earth. As we say YES to the fire, we are moving into levels of insight, accuracy and revelation of His heart, His ways and plans like we have not ever dreamed of.” (See the whole post)

In relation to a church, the prophetic sees where God wants to take a church. The Prophetic obtains guidance and direction from the Lord in the form of visions, prophetic words, revelation, insight, heavenly mandates etc. The Prophetic brings the revelation from God of the vision and future plans the Lord has. The Apostolic then brings the authority, wisdom, strategy and heavenly instruction on how exactly to complete the plan. With only the Prophetic, a great prophetic word will only remain a great word 20 years later and nothing is accomplished, this is what has happened in many circles. With only the Apostolic we have good works, strategy, wisdom but we may not actually accomplish God’s will as we have not obtained the Prophetic guidance or word from God for His exact will. That is why the 2 are so interdependent and it is essential for every church to build on this foundation.

It is important at this stage to emphasize that when we talk about the Apostolic & Prophetic we are not talking about titles, individuals, positions or hierarchy. We are talking about the function or the role of the Apostolic or Prophetic in the church. If we do not clarify this distinction people will think it is all about the titles within a church or leadership hierarchy. To think that way would miss the point as many with no titles or positions within churches actually function in the Apostolic and Prophetic. Naturally if you have a genuine Apostle and Prophet operating in a church then this would help ensure the church is built on the biblical foundation of Ephesians 2:20. However, the main focus is the function or role of the Apostolic and Prophetic, rather than titles or leadership hierarchy.

It is also important to state that Apostles and Prophets are NOT more important and that Pastors and Teachers are NOT now obsolete. They all have essential roles and functions as do all the fivefold ministry and all believers who are not in full time ministry. The reality is Pastors would be more effective and function better with a lot less burnout if proper foundations were in place. The truth is we have placed unnecessary and indeed unbiblical pressure upon Pastors hence why so many have struggled in ministry. The Pastor has been made the foundation/focus of the church and this has led to significant imbalance in the church. This imbalance and undue Pastoral pressure has led to countless committing suicide, leaving ministry, financial scandal and marital breakdown. Some will say that is all down to lack of integrity or character and while that will play a part – the fact that Pastors have been given such heavy and unbiblical burdens has been just as pivotal. If Churches had been built on the correct biblical foundation, then there would be fewer unnecessary demands on Pastors.

There is the fivefold ministry which most are familiar with, which is the Apostle, Prophet, Pastor, Teacher and Evangelist as per Ephesians 4:11

“So Christ Himself gave the apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, the pastors and  teachers”. (Ephesians 4:11)

The church has built predominantly with the foundation of Pastor, Evangelist and Teacher. However, in addition to the aforementioned Ephesians 2:20, the word of God further emphasizes the correct foundation and true biblical order to be the Apostles and Prophets. The additional emphasis is found in 1 Corinthians 12:28

“And God has placed in the church first of all apostles, second prophets.” (1 Corinthians 12:28)

It is vital at this stage to highlight that it is God who created this order of first Apostles and Prophets, not man or any individual. Therefore, when you remove the very foundation instructed by the Lord – you have no foundation at all and no building can successfully stand with no foundation. The inclusion of the cover image was inspired by the Lord in order to perfectly illustrate how we have built as a church – with no true foundation.

The church has operated without these 2 foundations and instead we have often come up with man’s agenda’s, as good as they may seem and asked God to bless that. When the biblical order is that we seek God’s purpose and plan and then we obey that. One believer quoted: “We have effectively been telling God what to do when it is supposed to be the other way around.” God in His grace has blessed some of our work, agenda’s, church programmes and some have seen some fruit. However, it has largely been minimal fruit compared to what God wants to do through each church if they fully embrace Ephesians 2:20. Without the true Apostolic and Prophetic much of what can happen in churches is guesswork and “leadership consensus” does not equate God’s will – it is vital believers know this.

The Apostolic and Prophetic obtain revelations, blueprints and clarity on God’s will and also how to implement it. Without this, we can try as much as we like and as can be seen by the church as a whole, there is very little or limited fruit. Certainly compared to the level of influence, impact and transformation the Lord desires every church to have. We have effectively prayed: “OUR will be done on earth as it is in Heaven and OUR Kingdom come.” The church shift to “YOUR will be done on earth” has already begun and the bible is clear the biblical way to achieve this is by building with the Apostolic & Prophetic foundation.

The Apostolic and Prophetic is primarily about alignment with God’s mission. This includes His heavenly plan for a local church, its region and the nation as a whole. Each church has a specific mandate or plan from God and in order to correctly fulfill this, both the Apostolic and Prophetic are needed. Each church has a bigger purpose than to be a Sunday destination for believers, host Evangelistic outreaches and develop in-house church program’s. The Ecclesia are meant to have a sphere/region of influence where the church impacts society in a far more tangible way and negate the operation of the devil in their designated region. Jesus’ mandate was to “Destroy the works of the devil” (1 John 3:8) and this needs to be our goal also. It includes transforming communities, schools, the government, business and reducing the problems and evil in the area like addictions, poverty and crime. This level of influence is very rarely seen through churches, however, that is what the Lord desires and is expected of us as per Matthew 28:19

“All authority is given to me. Therefore, go and make disciples of nations”

and Jeremiah 29:7

“Seek the peace and prosperity of the city I have placed you.”

However, if we refuse to build according to the Ephesians 2:20 blueprint, then it is not possible to have this level of impact. If a church operates without the function or application of the Apostolic and Prophetic, they loose a significant degree, if not all of the sight/vision and wisdom/strategy to build effectively. That is why it is so important that all churches adjust accordingly so that they have both the prophetic guidance and Apostolic wisdom and strategy to correctly advance the Kingdom of God. We all must adjust our current wineskins accordingly or the Lord cannot pour out His new wine (experience, encounter, expression of Jesus in the church) or our old wineskins and structures will burst as they cannot contain what God is about to do.

Some may wonder how such a shift is happening now and why such a significant biblical truth and foundation has been missed by the majority of the church. The Lord has a time and a season for everything. An excerpt from a prophetic word by Chuck Pierce, who is one of the most respected prophetic voices in the world, lays a foundation for this fresh revelation and understanding of Ephesians 2:20:

“The time is NOW to plow that fallow ground. There is more than your mind has conceived – new patterns, new ways, and new means. The familiar will chain you down to an old thing and way, and you won’t be ready for the breaking of a new day. You will return to divine patterns you’ve not seen clearly in the Word before; or you saw them and you didn’t know how to apply it right.” (See the whole post)

Here Chuck speaks of blueprints in the word being seen in a new way and that is exactly what has happened with Ephesians 2:20.

With all of this in mind, it is crucial that we all adjust accordingly. Whatever group, ministry or denomination, the Lord is speaking to all. The Charismatic and Pentecostal groups may feel they have accepted Apostles and embraced the Prophetic, however, by and large they too have not built their churches on this foundation. Therefore, it is not a season for merely acknowledging these 2 foundational functions and roles, but actually building our houses and churches around these as the bible instructs.

Many will be realizing that this will require sweeping and drastic changes where they are planted. It is vital that all leaders in particular humbly accept this and seek the Lord on blueprints on how to adjust accordingly so that they are prepared to be a house that experiences the fullness of what God wants to do.

Some will resist as is always the case when God does something new or moves in Revival power. However, God gives us freewill, so we can continue with our man made designs and ideas about church that is built on the old wineskin of the Pastoral, but will miss out on what God wants to do. God in His grace will not pour out His new wine on those who resist this change, because as the parable says – their wineskin will burst and the wine will be wasted. In the natural we all know the mess and marks that are left when wine spills, so in the spiritual the Lord does not want to pour out wine in places who refuse to adjust their wineskin as it will lead to wasted wine and wineskins.

Confirmations – 10 Global Confirmations

The word of God says in Amos 3:7 “Surely the Lord does nothing without revealing to His servants the Prophets.” The Lord has indeed brought fresh revelation to His church. Therefore, the best way to emphasize that this is a genuine word from God is to provide a list of confirmations from respected leaders in the Church. Some sections will be highlighted for emphasis and all sources are quoted for research and further study if desired.

Confirmation 1: Catherine Brown (Scotland) – Prophetic Word for 2016

As we approach the year end and we contemplate what the New Year of 2016 may hold in the Kingdom of God it is my conviction that we are shifting into a deeper dispensation of grace by which we will move in new levels of wisdom, instruction and revelatory understanding, which will in turn release God’s miracle-working power and provision in our midst.

“There is a global paradigm shift coming that will cause the church to move from “revelation-only” to the much needed gift of instruction plus revelation. It is receiving and acting upon the word of apostolic instruction coupled with revelatory understanding that will become the key to miracle manifestation.” (see the whole post)

Confirmation 2: Sharon Stone Prophetic Word for 2016 – Time to Build Apostolically

“This begins with the Church again being built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, so there are some shiftings that are going on around the earth right now. This foundation is being restored in a new dimension of God’s government. He is giving us fresh strategies for today and so new blueprints to build are being released to enable the Church to partner with God in this new mandate. For some it will look like a redevelopment plan, but for all participating it will be structures that are going to accommodate an incredible harvest.” (See the whole post)

Confirmation 3: Alice Cresswell – Morningstar (England) – Apostolic and Prophetic partnership

“This is a time for the prophetic to go to a whole new level. Like Daniel, supernatural gifts will begin to be used within every sphere with people of influence, to help rebuild His city and His Temple. I believe Cyrus and Daniel represent the apostolic and the prophetic coming together in a whole new way to bring about the purposes of God at this time, to liberate the people of God from captivity, from being lukewarm and complacent and from the religious spirit. The Lord is rebuilding His temple, that is the people of God. The Apostolic (like Cyrus) will come into greater maturity and follow divine strategies and advance, taking enemy territory.” (see the whole post)

Confirmation 4: Cindy Jacobs (USA) – January Prophetic Word for 2016

“There will be connections between apostles and prophets that will result in prophetic words not only being released, but also implemented to see their fulfilments.” (see the whole post)

Confirmation 5: Marshall Cross (Scotland) – January Prophetic Word for 2016

“The ‘old wine skins’ and the ‘old wine’ have had its day and unless we are willing to transition to the new we will be left in the old way of doing church and ministry. Once the plates stop moving in the spirit the Tsunami of change will settle and there will be a period of recognising the true apostolic as the scales will begin to fall off the eyes of those once blinded.” (see whole post)

Confirmation 6: Jane Hamon – Prophetic Word for 2016 – (USA)

“I believe as the Apostles and Prophets (as well as apostolic and prophetic people) come together to decree and create a sound in the earth, they will put the Lord in remembrance regarding previous covenants in our nation where we were dedicated to God and to the expansion of the Gospel and the Kingdom of God, and He will respond from Heaven.” (see the whole post)

Confirmation 7: Peter Wagner on the Apostolic Reformation

Peter Wagner calls it a “ChurchQUAKE”. States that by 2017 we will see that the New Apostolic Reformation has arrived in Europe. Dr. C. Peter Wagner has presented why Apostolic Churches are changing the world today. In 2017, it will be 500 years since Luther´s Reformation. That will also show that the New Apostolic Reformation has arrived full-fledge in Europe. (See the whole post)

Confirmation 8: Phyllis Ford – January 15th Word for 2016 (USA) – Reformation Winds

“The Lord said He was about to set things in order, ushering in an apostolic and prophetic order that will change churches and even house meetings. People will be gathering together with a hunger for His presence and hearts crying out for transformation, and it will take place in the house both apostolically and prophetically. In many ways God will see to it that things fall into their proper place.” (See the whole post)

Confirmation 9: Val Russell – Prophecy 6.2.16

“For you to accomplish the destiny of My Church, you must be joined with Me, partaking of My Divine insight. Build My Kingdom by being spiritually smart. The Spirit of Wisdom and knowledge will work together for you; knowledge is knowing “what” to do and it is prophetic in its nature. I have not called you all to be a Prophet, but I have called you all to be prophetic. Wisdom is knowing “how” to do it. Wisdom is the ability to apply knowledge accurately. Possess My wisdom as well as My power for Wisdom is an intelligence – it is the mind of Christ. The Spirit of Wisdom will cause you to be kingdom-minded people who rule and reign with rank, positioning and power, and possess kingdom dominion and authority. This is being “Apostolic”. You are not all Apostles but I have called you all to be ‘Apostolic’. Build on a Prophetic Foundation, advance the building with Apostolic Revelation, and keep Christ Jesus as your Chief Cornerstone.” (Source: Facebook Page of Prophetic Releasers for UK Revival – Revival Prophetic)

Confirmation 10: Ryan LeStrange – Word for 2016 – Apostolic and Prophetic foundations

“His house is built on the apostolic and prophetic foundation with Jesus Himself being the chief cornerstone (see Ephesians 2:20). A large part of the Body of Christ is opening up to the reality of these two foundational gifts and ministries. There will be tremendous apostolic and prophetic synergy to uncover the plans of the Father for His people along with divine strategy. These two gifts will lock arms in an unprecedented way in order to pioneer dynamic Kingdom expression.” (See the whole post)

What Does This Mean For The Church? – Key Points

From these confirmations it is clear that the Lord Himself has declared a global shift and new season for His church that must be built on the Ephesians 2:20 foundation of the Apostles and Prophets. The number of confirmations prove that our Sovereign God has spoken to His church and there can be no doubt or legitimate debate about that.

Therefore, what does this mean for believers and the church? There are key points that we can all take away from this word from God:

  1. The Lord is speaking to EVERY church, denomination, ministry or Christian group in the world with no exceptions.
  2. We must ALL shift from the Pastoral & Teacher foundation that we have practiced to the Apostolic & Prophetic foundation that the bible instructs us in Ephesians 2:20.
  3. Within each house of God/church/ministry we must either have an Apostle and Prophet operating or align/connect with Apostolic or Prophetic ministries. We must make this tangible shift within our congregations in order to build according to the bible.

Practical Steps:

We must all adjust accordingly or our current structures & ways of doing church will not be prepared to contain what God wants to pour out in this new season. Those who refuse the shift to Ephesians 2:20 foundations, will effectively disqualify themselves and it will lead to churches stagnating as well as believers and others not fulfilling their purpose. In Luke 19:44, Jesus warned Israel that they would miss their time of visitation and we too will miss it if we do not adjust accordingly and prepare.

  1. The shift to the Apostolic & Prophetic foundation is a shift to obtaining Heavenly blueprints and revelation and doing that instead of man’s agendas and best efforts. It includes equipping and releasing believers into their calling and having greater influence in every sphere of society.
  2. We are on the verge of the greatest move of God/harvest we have ever seen and Ephesians 2:20 is only the foundation so that we can contain the new wine and harvest. However, we will miss it if we do not build according to Heaven’s blueprint instead of man’s tradition’s, programs and agendas which is what the church as a whole has done.
  3. Leaders only need to say “Yes” and the Lord will guide them in how to adjust in their church, ministry or group. The Lord only asks our willing co-operation and He will ensure we are correctly prepared for what is to come.Practical steps/responses
  • Spend time studying this word until it deeply sinks in – Ephesians 2:20
  • Share this word with your leaders where you are planted or worship.
  • If you are a leader it is a key time to adjust to the new, as there is far greater accountability upon leaders in this new season.
  • Rise up in your Apostolic & Prophetic calling/gifting where you are planted.

Seek God’s direction if you find resistance to the new where you are planted.


With such a huge amount of confirmation across the globe, there can be only one conclusion. The conclusion is that this is indeed a genuine word from God to the whole church. It is clear the church as a whole has not built on the correct foundation that the bible instructs us in Ephesians 2:20. We have opted to do it man’s ways and methods and this is the primary reason we have not had the impact we should have.

When the Lord approached Peter and told him to cast his net on the other side of the boat, Peter had a decision to make. He could have stayed discouraged, given up or chosen to continue with his methods that had brought him no success. Or he could obey the Lord and His method, even if it goes against what Peter thought was his better judgment. Peter choose wisely to obey the Lord and it led to an unprecedented harvest.

We too stand in the Valley of Decision. We can choose to continue with our methods, foundations, old wineskins and church programmes which will lead to minimal or no success. Or we can choose to obey the Lord who has clearly spoken about a new way, foundation and wineskin that will lead to harvest and fruitfulness.

Therefore, the conclusion for this is short. Every leader and believer has a crucial choice to make at what appears to be the most significant turning point for the church since the Reformation. The Lord has made it clear that we must ALL adjust to the new by laying the biblical foundation of the Apostolic & Prophetic. Consequently, every leader needs to ensure their house/church/ministry correctly adjusts to the biblical foundation of Ephesians 2:20. In addition, every believer has a responsibility to ensure they are planted in a place that embraces and operates in this. The Lord has made it abundantly clear that this is His sovereign will for His people. Therefore, if we refuse to shift with Him, no individual or church can blame God for the outcome. The Lord in His love and grace has forewarned us, let us not reject His great grace. Blessings to all in His Name.

Thomas Harry

Author: Thomas Harry

Thomas Harry was the Falkirk Full Gospel Church Youth Leader during the Pastoral leadership of both Billy Waters and more recently Comfort Harry. Prior to that he was the Youth Leader at Linlithgow Christian Fellowship. Pastor Billy Waters ordained him for future leadership during his time as church pastor.

As Senior Leader, he supervises Church Operations and Services. He holds a degree in Technology and Business Studies achieved at Strathclyde University, Glasgow in 2002. Thomas and his wife Vivian, have been married for over 4 years and have 2 children.

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March 13, 2016 7:08 PM

The Foundation is Jesus Christ. Just do a Bible search and you will find it. Yes there are Apostles and Prophets in the church today. But the Foundation is Jesus Christ according to the Apostle Paul. So always check to see that the Foundation that today’s Apostles and Prophets have laid is Jesus Christ.

James Bailey
March 13, 2016 8:58 PM

Yes, Jesus Christ is the foundation of our salvation.

For no man can lay a foundation other than the one which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. (1 Corinthians 3:11)

But as this post showed, the Apostle Paul also wrote:

19 So then you are no longer strangers and aliens, but you are fellow citizens with the saints, and are of God’s household,
20 having been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus Himself being the corner stone. (Ephesians 2:19-20)

So the foundation of God’s household is laid by the apostles and prophets with Jesus Christ being the corner stone.

March 15, 2016 5:14 PM

Yes , this is how I read this passage now that I have looked further into this new opinion for me. I note that th Word used for cornerstone is not foundation stone where a bldg rests, but it is th stone placed at th summit of th edifice as its crown and completion. And the sanctuary is pictured as growing as folk are built into it. As to foundation, it is hard t imagine that Paul would say in I Cor 3:10-16 that no one can lay any other foundation than that already laid, which is Jesus Christ But t then turn around and say that he and his fellow apostles and prophets are th foundation itself. This is not speaking of salvation process. It is speaking of that spiritual temple, rather sanctuary, that we are who trust Jesus as Saviour.

Jamie in Austria
Jamie in Austria
March 13, 2016 3:52 PM

Hello Everybody,
It is so cool to see this posting as last night I watched this movie called “The Last Reformation”. Maybe you have heard about it? I can tell you, living in Vienna feeling that revival needs to come to the streets and not in the church buildings etc. When I discovered this movie I was on fire the entire time and as well crying with tears of joy and just blown away by the power of how God is moving today.
Most important was outside of this blog, I come to finally learn that there are truly others all around Europe and the world which are truly living “The Book of Acts” in their every day lives. Honestly, you got to watch it. It also is very revealing in what God is doing around the world. Honestly, I’ve never seen such an amazing move of God like what I’m seeing here. So many are on fire for the Lord stepping out of the “church system” and stepping into the life of the First Century Ecclesia.

March 16, 2016 9:52 AM

I watched the video and find it so exciting and refreshing. Talk about “taking his works to the marketplace”. This is the Christianity that the world has been waiting for! I wholeheartedly believe in this reformation but have never acted on it personally yet. I need to just jump in and face my fears.

Last night I watched the first video (out of the 20) of the discipleship program. I believe that first video alone would bring many “fence sitters” in the westernized nations to Jesus.

Rachel Baxter
March 13, 2016 9:11 PM

Jamie – I watched the movie last week and was really encouraged! We then showed it to the children at our Spirit-Led Christian school so that they could see what God has in store for us. I also have a sense of anticipation for what is coming in the true Body of Christ. Something to be watching and praying into in the US on April 9th will be The Call led by Lou Engle. That date is the 110th anniversary (5-5 double!) of the Azusa Street revival breakout in LA. Teachers from our school are going and I’m just really excited to see a fresh outpouring of the Holy Spirit! May the world be changed as we turn to Christ!

March 16, 2016 8:07 PM
March 14, 2016 10:13 AM

I just want to say how amazing and inspiring this site, it’s contributors, and it’s readers are! I’m just a “teany-bopper” Christian. I’ve got a firm foundation but I still have lots to learn. I also seem to continually be getting ahead of myself or thinking I know more than I do. It’s very humbling to come here and continually read the humble, level headed and loving comments from so many mature Christians that are SO spirit filled, heavily anointed and gifted. I am very grateful to have found this site and also to know that so many of you research your other information on the other sites that I frequent. It’s confirmation that God has lead me to the right path and is showing me his true ways.

James Bailey
March 14, 2016 2:48 PM

That is awesome Sandra. Glad to know you are part of the Z3 family!

March 13, 2016 10:05 AM
Ok. As I read this article, I have many thoughts I do not see raised in th comments. First, is about the pastor….having been a pastors daughter and later a pastors wife of a man who eventually renounced his vows and became secular, I see another side. When a person approaches a pastor who spent 4 yrs in seminary and another couple yrs after that before having full pastoral duties, and add to that a few yrs of experience as head churchman, it can be initially disconcerting to have a woman come and tell him he is doing it all wrong. So just think how th poor fella feels? Cuz he already has had 6 other type criticisms already. Plus he has a distraught wife who probably holds a fulltime job and is not that great at supporting her pastor husband anyway. Then he has Four kids who r now teens into all sorts of rebellions and issues. Please think about what is on this mans plate when you do not get the response you are hoping to get. Man! I can see th point of this article, for sure, cuz we do church so wrong! Ones inner being affirms that! And how to change it is a HUGE task. But do consider th pastor being like facing a tsunami when folk begin to approach him re this topic. In fact, as a nonpastor family now, it is easy to wonder about a lot from th pew point of view that this article clarifies for me….like for instance, in a hospital caregiver setting we never made a nurse diagnosis ( example, knowledge deficit re meds ) that was not followed by a plan of action and that followed by evaluation etc. yet pastors preach a theme but never, ever lay… Read more »
James Bailey
March 13, 2016 6:15 PM

I don’t think anyone is planning to whop any pastors upside their head. We can leave it up to God to shake all of us because we all need to make adjustments, not just pastors. I believe God has a plan for re-aligning His church, which likely includes a whole lot of shaking.

March 14, 2016 3:24 AM

‘Up aside th head’ is meant to explain how a pastor feels when first told re how church is being done compared to how it was originally done. It is like a huge wave slapping one across th middle….fiirst of all just because it is so foreign a thought. It is new. It is not status quo. I just want the prophets to realize that this is the effect and to not feel as if the Word is just falling on purely deaf ears but an array of hearings are happening in a pastor’s soul. One may need time and prayer for this new understanding to take ahold.

James Bailey
March 14, 2016 3:52 AM

I understand what the expression means, but again it sounds to me like you have missed the point here. We are not bringing charges against pastors or anyone else. God is the one who is bringing correction to all of us because we all need it. So this would be something to talk to Him about.

March 12, 2016 9:47 AM


I have seen this kind of rejection when the gifts of the Spirit are introduced to a church which heavily relies on a modern church environment. I saw a man working powerfully in the gift of healing. Many were being healed inside this church and outside. Only then to see his wife turn against him in her own “crisis of belief”. The body of this church did nothing to stand in the gap for this man till eventually she divorced him.

This man began doing the works of Christ and the Enemy deceived his wife and others to disqualify a very powerful work of God.

Many “having a form of godliness but denying its power” 2 Timothy 3:5

Marla R
Marla R
March 12, 2016 7:10 PM

Josh, it is so sad to hear stories like this. We are certainly at war against an enemy that wants to come and steal, kill and destroy. I know that God is faithful to restore what has been stolen and I pray for this man, as well as Ken that posted on here! I pray that God will restore what has been taken from them in the area of relationships.

March 12, 2016 12:37 PM

Josh, I can also identify with this as I went to the “pastor” and asked him to speak to my wife and tell her what the Bible says and he immediately said “if I tell her what the Bible says she will leave the Church”.. She did anyway and divorced me. It was some time afterwards that after returning from a Sunday service and reading in my room, the Lord simply spoke a few words to me which I searched in my Strong’s and they were ” blind dumb dogs” and those three words spoke volumes. It wasn’t long after that this man left the Church.

Rachel Baxter
March 12, 2016 7:35 AM

The Lord spoke this word into my heart in May 2014 while at a small conference listening to C.Peter Wagner speak for the first time. This is truth and the proof is the work of the Lord all around us. I would recommend the book “Apostles Today” by Wagner. I believe the Lord used this book in my own life to speak identity into me and help to set me free from what the world said about me, and instead hear what the Lord says about me. It is only in Him that we can learn who we were created to be. He has magnificent plans for each one of us in His kingdom!

David Hapenney
March 11, 2016 1:06 PM

After not speaking with Peter Wagner for many years, since my being graduated from Fuller seminary, I heard him several months ago. He was my professor for one class, and having completed my studies in Fuller’s School of World Missions, I feel I know well where he is coming from. I understand Pete’s perspective on impacting and transforming culture through influencing it systemically. A danger is that man -and it’s happened with every revival moment so far- always takes the new thing that God is doing and constructs wine-skins that conform to the understanding of the times. In this case, however, I believe that the new wine-skins the Lord has in mind will not be of man. Wheat and tares grow together until the time of harvest.

March 12, 2016 6:08 AM

Interesting, could you elaborate a little more on what you’re saying? Thanks.

David Hapenney
March 12, 2016 9:08 AM
Hi Kristel. Well, no matter what we may “hear”, we need always to be humble about how the Lord leads because although we are built on the teaching of the apostles and prophets, the Lord Himself and He only is the master builder and Christ is the cornerstone (see my latest post “What Good is Politics?”). Training for church planting involves seeing all aspects of a culture existing around and reflecting worldview. For example, this has been the strategy of the homosexual movement and it’s effectively gotten into “the seven mountains” (Pete Wagner’s and others’ philosophical views on cultural change) of media, family, business, entertainment, government, and so on. This is what the new apostolic movement wants believers to do which is why (as I understand it) it has no problem working with government for disaster preparedness within their congregations. [anecdote: a pastor in the lead new apostolic movement church told me that we are not to be overt in speaking about Christ to others in a disaster situation, we influence by what we do. Well, sorry, I will obey Christ and say what He wants because He is my Lord and He calls the shots not me or any one else thank you very much.] I’ve done much soul-searching in this area and here is where I believe the movement is in error. The heart of the Kingdom of God is allegiance to Christ Himself which sets us on a particular path which transforms through influence yes but also sometimes in confrontation (maybe even obstruction and death, see Rick Wiles program on 3/11/16). In other words, remove the cross and our carrying it daily and you remove the heart of the Gospel. Christ’s death and resurrection is both the end and the beginning of all things. Sorry to go… Read more »
James Bailey
March 12, 2016 9:26 AM

Sounds like the so-called apostles you described did not represent true apostolic ministry. There have been shortcomings in all five ministries, but the point of this article is a shift coming to the church, which will bring us back in line with God’s plan, founded on the ministry of the apostles and prophets, with the Lord Jesus being the corner stone (Ephesians 2:20).

David Hapenney
March 13, 2016 1:34 AM


Ali Winters
March 12, 2016 10:29 AM

Thank you all for the very thought provoking comments. What a wonderful example of how the body should function. Joining heart and hand, united, standing strong on One Foundation, Christ Jesus our LORD.

Rose Vidal
June 9, 2016 7:49 PM

Seems like a lot of thought went into this, God speaks and does what he pleases when he pleases there needs to be no shift. The enemy will come with signs and wonders and will deceive many. Repent and turn from sin that is the message Jesus said to preach. If anything needs to be done he will send the ones that need to do it in the power of the Holy Spirit to do it.

James Bailey
June 10, 2016 1:27 AM

If the will of God was always done on earth, Jesus would not have told us to pray, “Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven” (Matthew 6:10). Since His will is not always done on earth, a shift is needed to bring the unrighteous to repentance, so that is what is coming.

Richard Barker
March 14, 2016 11:14 AM

James, very many thanks for publishing this across ‘The Pond’.
Your readers may be interested in a related dream I had whilst news of Thomas’ paper was awaiting my opening up email, and of a relevant scripture bridging both items, as told in

Aline Bour
March 13, 2016 3:31 PM

Marla, sometimes it’s time to get out and start your own home study group–which I think will soon become the pattern due to persecution.